aw gee.. about that php is toy coding comment.. no harm intended. sloccount shows that the libraries the javuh team just completed totals 14,628 lines of code. needless to say, it was very fun to code (hence "toy coding") and quite guiltless. and truth be told, i'd rather be categorized with the kids than the adults. at ApacheCon and anywhere else. i think our project goes along with the whole "rapid prototyping" idea as well.. a possibility which would be much more cumbersome in other prominent web languages. we are able to build a basic object schema and generate the HTML forms, databases, and PHP classes from that. saves a lot of time. i think this goes with other comments just voiced. i just went back and watched the pilot to alias, which i missed because i got into the series late. i am addicted to that show. and the pilot has so much more meaning now. it's amazing that it's only been a single season.